Source First theory and how far to take it?

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-01-15 23:56

I think that's a fair characterization of my statement.

It is important to remember that the Hierarchy states that the source is the most important part of the system - it does not say it is the only important part. In addition to the example of Azazello's system change, you could certainly have a system so unbalanced that upgrading the source no longer makes sense. If a component in the chain is so underperforming that you can't hear the improvements further up the chain then it is better to make the improvements elsewhere.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-01-16 01:23

Lego: Very Zen indeed! :) I agree you should ideally have both systems present when they are as different as this. I suspect I might end up playing some records on one system and others on the second system.

Charlie: I feel you, man! The 'what ifs' pop up in my head every day. Some are plain rubbish, a few are seeds that can grow. Some come to me in my sleep. The tricky thing is knowing which ones to discard.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-01-17 18:11

Wow - what a morning. I had the house to myself for a rare change and the choice of listening to music, catching up on some Xmas movies or trying to get a bit of hands on source first experience. As you probably guessed, I chose the latter. Wow again.

I hatched a plan earlier this week. I could replicate my 'extreme' source first example to some degree. Use the LP12SE/Linto as front end in each case, but with Silver ICs for the awful system and the black ICs for my usual system. The no-so-good system would be supplied by my wife.

First job was to check I could tune dem the different ICs using my normal system. Easy, the Silvers obviously won and no trouble performing the dem.

Second job was to bring in my wife's 10 year old Technics midi system which was duly installed on the carpet floor including speakers - it was after all supposed to be musically awful and I didn't want to disappoint. It was also stone cold and my system had been powered on for days (except 6100 which gets too hot.)

Next job was to find some way of connecting it up to a rather expensive turntable. This was not so difficult but quite a worry! It was OK though and didn't blow anything up. First impressions were a bit of a surprise - 'Gee, it sounds really good!' (NB: This was not actually my first thought, but a much politer variation)

So, that's an LP12SE/Akiva/Linto/Silvers/Technics SD-HD510 & 310 verses a LP12SE/Akiva/Linto/Blacks/KK1/6100/Ninka(aktiv). Cast your votes now.

However, it was so very difficult to get away from the differences in sound, that I don't feel confident I ever found out which was the more musical. I really struggled when tune dem'ing the Linn Skeets and this was much much harder. I resorted to listening from downstairs. This helped, but I'm still not sure. Sometimes, the all-Linn system seemed quite a bit more tuneful. Other times there seemed nothing in it.

So, I don't have a clear outcome, but it was enough for me to get a great insight. A 10 year old midi system plonked on the carpet can sound amazingly musical when connected to a £10K turntable. Yes, I'm sure the sound would get on your nerves are a little while, but it was a million times more enjoyable than normal (I hate it BTW, especially the CD player. We sometimes play nursery rhymes for our daughter and it murders them).

You are all fully entitled to say 'I told you so' and that's fine by me. I'm just glad that I made the effort to actually listen to this setup. I realise this is all a bit academic now because the above posts have made it clear that a more musical source can be made to 'sound' so unpalatable by poor downstream components that you just wouldn't go there.

You certainly wouldn't hook up an LP12SE to a midi system, but I can really appreciate that a properly installed budget integrated amp and speakers would be more satisfying overall than a more even spread of funds with poorer source. Not that I ever disbelieved anyone here, but there is no replacement for experience I think. It all seems more real now.

If I get more time again, perhaps I'll have another shot. Over and out.

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2009-01-17 19:11

Charlie and all. I just got my new KK/1 as it is called out on the box. This is the new version. I guess a KK is the original and KK/1 the new. I know that I still need burn in time. I'm finding that it sounds so much better and speaker positioning doesn't have as big an impact as with the karin. I need time to get used to the new sound. I'm waiting for my jaw to raise back up off the floor as I'm sure that will affect my TuneDem :lol: .It is so much different.

I have to wonder if anything in a source could have this much impact on the music. So happy to wonder!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-01-17 19:51

SaltyDog wrote:I guess a KK is the original and KK/1 the new.

Personally, I'd been referring to the original KK as the KK1, just as we call the original Lingo, Lingo1. What was your old pre by the way?

SaltyDog wrote:I have to wonder if anything in a source could have this much impact on the music. So happy to wonder!

I suppose what source first is teaching us is that a wonderfully musical pre-amp (like yours), power amp or speakers only has the potential to be musically superb - it all really depends on the upstream components.

Clearly your source is very good, so you can not only enjoy the superior 'sound' of your new pre-amp, but benefit from the fact that it is also passing on more of the 'musicality' being fed by your source. If your source wasn't as good then you probably wouldn't rate the KK so highly. An even better source and you might be even more impressed by its capabilities. Anyway, glad you're enjoying it and happy listening!

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2009-01-17 22:04

Charlie, The KK replaced a Karin with the brilliant power supply that has just been totally refurbished this month, so I guess it's as good as a Karin gets.

I guess it's like "Old Coke" was just "Coke" until "New Coke" was introduced. The KK/1 designation is from LInn. I was thinking like you prior to registering the KK. I had an "oh no!" moment when I first saw the /1 on the box. By the way my Lingo (LK box) just says Lingo.

I think the Klouts/Keltik are well matched. Future source upgrades would definitely be more worthwhile now. I had considered upgrading the ADS for a KDS, but no one on this forum mentioned it. Most recommendations for my system were for preamp and linn silvers. It goes to show how good a thing a forum like this, based on a constant method of evaluating components, is at achieving the desired results.

I now have ADS-KK with balanced silvers, KK - Tunebox ("Linn Active Crossover" on LK Box) with silver unbalanced, LP12 - Karin - KK with silvers unbalanced (this is not working as the right channel is dead from the matrix and tape out connectors, so not being used). TV(Sat Box) - KK with blacks. New Skeets under Kelticks (3 each) and 6 under SolidSteel Rack. LP12 is on wall shelf. I plan to wait awhile to see if a new replacement for Linto comes along sometime soon. This will give another test to source first. I know it will be more musical as the LP12 through the Karin was more musical than the ADS.

Preamp, silvers and skeets are all new and installed at the same time so what affect each had is not clear. The KK/1 came with a set of each balanced and unbalanced silvers. I thought it would come with just the unbalanced - nice surprise :D

I've got a ways to go with burn in and TuneDem. Nice problems to deal with. The music keeps getting in the way of putting my thoughts into words right now.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-01-17 23:07

SaltyDog wrote:The KK/1 designation is from LInn. I was thinking like you prior to registering the KK. I had an "oh no!" moment when I first saw the /1 on the box. By the way my Lingo (LK box) just says Lingo.

Glad you mentioned that - I didn't realise.

Linn never gave the newer Lingo the name Lingo 2 - its just the way Linnies have referred to it in short hand.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-01-18 01:03

Charlie1 wrote:... Use the LP12SE/Linto as front end in each case, but with Silver ICs for the awful system and the black ICs for my usual system.

Charlie,

My immediate 'what if' was this: Did you swap the black and the silver interconnects between the "good" and the "awful" system?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-01-18 01:17

Lejonklou wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:... Use the LP12SE/Linto as front end in each case, but with Silver ICs for the awful system and the black ICs for my usual system.
Charlie,

My immediate 'what if' was this: Did you swap the black and the silver interconnects between the "good" and the "awful" system?

Yes, so the Silvers always connected to the 'awful' system and 'blacks' to the good one, thereby making one source slightly better than the other (when judged to also include the IC out from the Linto that is)

I did consider flipping the felt mat to make one system better than the other, but decided I wanted more of a difference between the two sources.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-01-18 02:13

No, I meant that when you had listened to both alternatives, did you then swap the interconnects, so that the "awful" system got a black interconnect and the "good" system got the silver?

That's where things might get really interesting, in my opinion.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-01-18 10:33

No, I never thought of that. Although I suspect I would (again) have struggled too much with the differences in sound to be able to draw any firm conclusions. I reached the limits of my Tune Dem abilities I think. A shame, but it was still a really useful exercise.

If I get another chance and have more time, I'll try one of the other Tune Dem approaches as this seems to be a continual stumbling block - i.e when there are big differences in 'sound'. I did the tradional Linn 'reproduce the sound in your head' approach. Might focus more about the 'performance' next time. I was a bit rushed also which is never good as mentioned many times before. At least I know how to fit it all together so next time it will be a little more 'relaxed' on that front also.

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2009-01-19 23:25

I was listening to a live broadcast on my Tivoli Pal and it sounded great,I went into my listening room to get something and the Kremlin was also playing;my initial response was that Kremlin didnt sound as exciting didnt want to go there(tuner demming the difference).Maybe the kremlin was conveying the actual standard of the musicianship and the Tivoli wasnt ..I hope thats the reason.. or maybe the Tivoli sounded good because the Kremlin was playing..sometimes you have to think and tune dem outside the box...be very careful Charlie you could be getting into Schrödinger's cat territory :lol:

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-01-20 00:13

Yes, it's easy to draw conclusions that are not entirely true.

What I was thinking was that if you swapped the cables back, you would know if that Technics system on the carpet actually fell considerably short of your Linn system (now with Silver IC's from the Linto). If it did, you could probably draw the conclusion that source first ruled in this case. But if you still had problems choosing, I'd bet you would be quite confused...

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-01-20 09:09

Leo, thanks for the warning not to draw wrong conclusions - I think you right in that its easy to do so unless you think things through properly.

Fredrik, I see where you are coming from. Yes, that would have been very useful and even more reason to have another go some time.

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2009-01-20 12:47

My experience is that it's more difficult to hear the difference the "bigger" it is. I remember one occation when I compared Rega P2 - LP12/Trampolin - LP12/Trampolin2 (not sure about the rest of the spec). The Trampolin2 was really easy to compare with "Trampolin1", and it was clearly better, but the difference between the Rega and LP12 was more confusing than "big".

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-01-20 13:29

Azazello wrote:My experience is that it's more difficult to hear the difference the "bigger" it is. I remember one occation when I compared Rega P2 - LP12/Trampolin - LP12/Trampolin2 (not sure about the rest of the spec). The Trampolin2 was really easy to compare with "Trampolin1", and it was clearly better, but the difference between the Rega and LP12 was more confusing than "big".

I'd not forgotten this as you mentioned it a long while ago. It was actually of some confort that its not just me who struggles in these situations. When the sound becomes obviously different (i.e. my wife can spot the difference), I find it really hard to get it out of my head so that I can isolate the musical differences. I think I can get there though with another attempt.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-02-01 16:23

PART 2

LP12SE/Linto/Blacks/KK/6100/Ninka Vs LP12SE/Linto/Silvers/Technics Midi system

I negotiated a free couple of hours with the lady of the house today with the aim of making some progress on this. I needn't have worried as I was done in about 45 minutes - all sorted.

This time I let the Technics warm up for a few hours and whilst the components were still on the carpet, I thought it only fair to place the speakers on a couple of MDF LP storage boxes. I wanted to improve the Technics chances a little because first step was to test the LP12SE/Technics system with both Silvers and Blacks to see what differences I could hear using Tune Dem. After all, if I couldn't tell the difference then the whole test seemed pretty pointless.

This was a good idea and I don't think I could have succeeded with the later comparisons if I hadn't done this first as it really helped me get my ear in and pick up on the musicality of the Technics - get my bearings if you will. First Tune Dem was totally inconclusive, but second time around I got it and could hear the tunefulness and ease of listening generated by the Silvers. The Blacks sounded stilted and awkward. It was easy to spot after that and I didn't even have to leave the room each time. A good start.

Next, back to the original test. My main system using blacks between Linto and KK against the LP12/Linto with silvers to the Technics. I nailed it first attempt and did another half a dozen using different unknown songs. It was always the same, sometimes more obvious, but always the same. The LP12/Linto/Technics system was more tuneful and easier to follow musically. I could hear it each time and the last Tune Dem I started with my main system and Blacks and could tell immediately that it wasn't going to be as tuneful - I didn't even need to check - although I obviously did for thoroughness.

So I'm sold on Source First through and through now. Linnofil highlighted some experiences to me a while ago regarding the Skeets that were a great Source First experience for me. He was absolutely right, but there has always been a nagging doubt as to its limits of application. I trust the opinions of forum members very much, but could never shake off those nagging doubts due to my lack of hands-on experience. Now I know cos I've heard it!!!

I rounded off by following Fredrik's suggestion to compare the better system with Silvers against the poorer one with Black. This was the same result as by now expected. A BIG thanks to Fredrik for his suggestion as it also lead the idea of checking I could hear the difference between Silvers and Blacks on the Technics system and that really got my ear in and past the relatively poor sound.

This is not to say I'd pick the Technics system to live with - I wouldn't. Except the better Tune Dem, the other system is better in every possible way and by a considerable margin as you would expect. I'd easily decide to opt for a bigger sound and one that won't annoy me after half an hour listening (Like its beginning to do right now!!!:mrgreen:) There is obviously far superior finesse, resolution and delicacy in my main system just to name a few. But this isn't the point of the test -

Source First Rules!!!!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-02-02 15:17

Now that I've had time to reflect on this test, I think if anything it's made me question my total dedication to source first theory. I still believe it's very important - I'm just more open to going against it occassionally.

If a system can win a tune dem and be clearly the less enjoyable system to live with then it follows that my previous approach was too black and white. I know it's been said previously that there is a mimimum level at which you'd want to go for downstream components, but I'm now even open to the idea of going against source first. If someone wants to upgrade their pre-amp instead of optimising their source first, I don't think I'll raise an eyebrow any longer, especially if they have listened to both options. I'm certain the system with better source would win in a Tune Dem, but not so sure it would be the most satisfying to live with. It most probably is, but that's not the same as it definitely being so, which would have been my previous view.

Finally, I think this affects the type and level of advice I can give out to others as it puts much more emphasis on experience and that the individual listen for themselves - although we always advise this anyway. I can no longer just say someone should first upgrade their source before thinking of doing x, y, z. Obtaining the best possible compromise between source first and quality of sound requires experience I think.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-02-02 16:17

Nice to hear that you "completed" your test, Charlie. I'm relieved to hear that your Linn playback won over the Technics when it got the Silver IC back. :mrgreen:

I find your conclusion a bit strange, however. Let's say you owned the LP12SE/Linto/Silver IC/Technics system. Could you trade in the pair of Silver IC's and the Technics and in exchange get one Klimax Kontrol, one 6100, a pair of aktiv Ninkas and all necessary cabling? No, of course not. Which indicates that your experiment was extreme and far from any practical choice in real life.

In your extreme test, the Tune was improved while the sound was degraded. A bit like with Azazello's system, where aktiv Ninkas were traded for a Keel.

I'd like to point out that in most cases when people ask for advice about how to spend amount X, they get better Tune and sound by leaning heavily towards Source First when making their decisions! To really understand this, you need to make some similarly-priced-alternatives tests. For example; compare Akurate DS + Klimax Kontrol with Klimax DS + Kikkin and tell us which had the best Tune and the best sound.

Another alternative, in which you can use your LP12 source, is to compare Klimax Kontrol + 5125 with Akurate Kontrol + Klimax Twin. Surely that Klimax power amp will sound bigger and more powerful. No? No!

I used to make numerous demonstrations like these in the past. There was usually complete consensus regarding both performance (in Tune Method terms) and what sound people preferred, up to the point where things got extreme.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-02-02 17:24

Yes, I hear you Fredrik and agree. All I'm saying is that if I accept it's possible for a source first system, albiet an extreme scenario, to not be the best solution, then I shouldn't just advise people on forums to always optimise their source before doing anything else. How do I know where the acceptable level of sound quality is without hearing the two options myself? Obviously common sense in some situations, but not always. In your example you listened to two options, so you were able to make an informed choice. - I'm probably over reacting or over stating my point a bit.

Lastly, whilst my test was extreme, Azazello's was much less so don't you think?

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2009-02-02 18:02

Fredrik, I would say our opinions are very similar, so I am interested in your thoughts on the following. If we can forget the Kikkin in this scenario (because you have created an amazing performance for such good value)
Someone has just purchased an Akurate ds to feed into their ancient kairn klout, when an opportunity arises to purchase a klimax kontrol.
I would in this case recommend the upgrade as they will realise a substancial improvement, over the kairn, but would you advise them to retain the kairn and get a klimax ds?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2009-02-02 20:10

So it going to be Akurate DS/Klimax Kontrol vs. Klimax DS/Kairn?

Upgrading my KK a few days ago and consider that one of the biggest upgrades ever (done many during 20 Linn years) not sure KDS/Kairn going to be best... :|

Anyone up for the test?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-02-02 20:42

Charlie, I agree with you. I just wanted to point out that most of the time, the available options are not like in your experiment. Azazello's system change was less extreme but apparently a difficult choice.

Anthony, is there any possibility of comparing the two options? That would be really interesting.

On one hand, I think that in a well tuned system, the Klimax DS is so superior to the Akurate DS that it sometimes feels like listening to a different recording. But the system needs to be well tuned to really show this. If it's not - even if very expensive and supposedly good - the differences can appear much smaller.

On the other hand, not all Kairns sound good today. Some have an old and tired sound, which would make the difference to Klimax Kontrol very big.

There are also other factors. One is the long term goal (Music Lover is a strong advocate of that). If that goal is having an all Klimax system, then a KK to the right price could be the way to go. A second is the costs and opportunities involved. If a retailer wants to trade in the Akurate DS when selling their demo Klimax DS, that might be an excellent opportunity.

But I'd really like to hear the two options. I suspect that if the Kairn is a late version in good shape, I would prefer that.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2009-02-03 00:29

lejonklou wrote: There are also other factors. One is the long term goal (Music Lover is a strong advocate of that).

Yes but that isn't the only factor to consider. The other is "only upgrade if all parameters are equal or better".

StellanH · Post by **StellanH** » 2009-02-03 10:07

As a rule of thumb I use the principle of half the price for equipment down the chain of source, control and playback:

If I have a budget of 100 units I would spend 50 on the source, 25 on control (pre-amp) and 25 on playback, which in turn consists of 12.5 for power-amp and 12.5 for speakers.

Of course, I still have to find the best possible equipment for the given price.

Hopefully, this ensures that the systems front-end is always one step ahead of the back-end, which I think is crucial.