Efraim roots wrote:Regarding source first I heard Klimax radikal vs Akurate radikal yesterday and Yes, the klimax certainly made things better.
Efraim, would appreciate any further thoughts you have on this, please. Perhaps as a separate thread so this doesn't go off-topic. Thank you
I'm sure I've seen some thorough comparison reports on here regarding these two Radikals but I can't find them now so maybe we can make a thread about it. What I heard on that demo was a topflight LP12 with Kandid and Urika and we compared Akurate and Klimax Radikals, same shelf and powercord used and the units were plugged in and powered up while they were waiting.
I was a little surprised to hear that the difference was quite big, because over the years I picked up that the difference supposed to be really marginal after reading the forums. What I heard was that the Klimax was better controlled, real and believable, during this demo the Radikal boxes powered both motor and Urika of course and the Kandid is probably quite revealing of these things. You can also ask if the improvement stands in relation to the price difference, probably not, and I guess that's why Linn themselves don't speak about it. It got me quite interested tho since I'm a real source first fan and something like Klimax Radikal with Urika and Krystal sounds really appealing since it doesn't involve a crazy hour cost but maybe better Akurate Radikal with Urika and Kandid? (I'm only dreaming tho).
lejonklou wrote:Did you switch the internals (main board and power supply) between the two cases?
hehe, of course not. Have you done that?
You apparently went to great lengths making sure the support and mains power for both units was equal. If the intention is to find out what the case does, the only way is to compare only the case. There can be substantial differences between main boards and between power supplies. Just compare two Akurate Radikals and you'll hear what I mean.
The comparison was made at a retailer, right? I'd ask him to swap the internals and run the demo again. To make it really fair, a torque tool is needed.
Thomas OK made a comparison like this, including a swap of the internals, a couple of years ago. Perhaps he can clarify exactly what he did, but I remember his findings at the time was that the difference between cases was small.
I made the comparison a couple a years ago and a friend replaced his Accurate Radikal with a Klimax one. The difference was that big.
Today I'm aware of the difference in boards and power supplys and you must do as Fredrik suggest to get a fair comparison. That said, Linns quality check is mediocre, to say the least.
Merry Christmas!
From what I remember, the Klimax was definitely more musical than the Akurate. The problem is that I have heard similar differences when comparing different Dynamik PS.
I just wanted to give my findings and also to correct a comment from Fredrik. I have not had the opportunity to swap internals and do a real comparison of how much difference the casework makes. We took Linn's word for it that there were no musical differences between the two so the vast majority of Radikals we have sold are the Akurate casework versions and that is what we have on demo. This original statement from Linn was confirmed by the tests I was able to do as detailed below so we haven't felt the need to investigate further.
I have only been able to do actual comparisons of a Klimax case version vs. an Akurate one twice. Once before the Dynamik and one a little bit afterward. In both cases I only had access to the customer's Klimax case Radikal for a brief time and was unable to swap boards or even assure proper torques so these tests were not as scientific as I would have liked. With the non-Dynamik units I found the standard casework (this was actually before the newer Akurate casework so more like the Majik casework) was actually just a touch more tuneful than the Klimax one. As the standard case had more burn in I felt them likely to be pretty much equal. The second time was when that same Klimax case unit came back in for a Dynamik upgrade. By then we had a Radikal with the new casework and the Dynamik in it. After the upgrade I compared these two units and found them to again be very close with the Klimax now a hair better. The customer had actually asked me to make the comparison and report back because he just wanted to know that the Klimax wasn't worse than the Akurate case on it! In both of these comparisons the differences were not as big as I have heard in unit to unit comparisons of KKs or other pieces so I felt the differences in the case were pretty negligible.
As mentioned I have found unit to unit variation in Linn electronics. Indeed I believe it is unlikely that anyone can COMPLETELY eliminate variation as none of the individual components are perfect and those differences can add up. However, in my experience individual components, such as resistors and non-polarized capacitors, are directional. When we started doing a lot of Dynamik upgrades after they first came out I noticed that there were two large rectangular caps next to each other on the board. On one PS they both faced one direction, on another they both faced the other direction and on a third one faced each direction. From this I deduced that Linn is not as exacting on component direction as they should be nor as Fredrik is on his products.
Another interesting comparison that also makes me suspect of the musical effect of the casework was when I was recently applying torques to a KRDS/1 for a customer. He had dropped the unit off and I had it about a week before he was picking it back up. (I also upgraded his Sagatun Monos to 1.1 and Tundra Monos to 2.0 at the time.) After torquing his unit I found it definitely musically superior to my KRDS/0 which had also been torqued. I then brought it into the store and compared it to our KDS/1 and the Renew was actually a bit better. However, I hadn't torqued the KDS/1 demo so I went ahead and did so. Now they were very close but I still liked the KRDS/1 just a hair better. Again my conclusion was that the casework seemed to make no difference but I, again, did not do an actual swap of boards. I would be interested to do a comparison with a board swap to really confirm whether the case makes an appreciable difference or not and maybe one day I will have the opportunity. But for now I own a Radikal in an Akurate case for obvious reasons.
We have another customer who also bought a Radikal in a Klimax case but he lives some ways away and I haven't been able to do the comparison with his unit. Both these customers bought the Klimax casework version to match with the other Klimax gear in their systems. If I wanted to match my gear I would need a Lejonklou case for my Radikal! Maybe that is a new product idea for Fredrik - a Lejonklou Radikal case kit. ;-)
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
A KRDS/1 costs £3-4K, depending on the dealer. But for arguments sake lets just stick with £4k.
Now this has the same board and bits including the dynamic PSU as a actual KDS1. Now a new KDS costs nearly £14,000, forget for a moment, that it will be a KDS2 because before the 2 they were still over £13k. The only difference from what I have gathered is the ingot case. Which presumably accounts for the missing £9-10k.
Ok if I buy a Klimax Radikal, for the LP12, that is only £4,600, Now it's virtually the same case, same PSU as a KDS and has a very similar sized PCB, plus I get a motor and control gear and the dealer rebuilds my LP12. So I get way more for many money with the Radikal than the KDS. So how does a KDS aluminium ingot case cost nearly £10k more than a KRDS and £8k more than the similarly constructed Klimax Radikal!
I believe you are mixing cost, with price and value in your case study. :)
Value is what the buyer sees in a product to legitimize the price he is willing to pay. Which might not have anything to do with the cost to design and produce the same product.
The KRDS/1 is damn good musical value. The KDS/1 is priced for the buyers appreciating the ingot casework. They both play digital files as opposed to the Klimax Radikal.
On the subject of the resistors and other components, anyone who has been on a factory tour will have seen that Linn buy the components in on reels which are fed into the automated construction machines. I don't know whether they are all aligned in the same direction on the reel. Given this, it is not surprising to me that there is variation between individual units. Linn don't take anywhere near the care that Fredrik does to ensure all components match a precise specification. When quizzed about the variability of the reel components at the recent forum event, we were told that any issues would be picked up by final listening tests.
Källa/Sagatun Mono 1.7/Tundra Mono 3/Avalon Idea Mk2
Lucky you. I need my KDS to enjoy 25 000 something songs previously on CDs now on my NAS. The Radikal does not play my digital files, but I wish it did. Would save me a box on a shelf.
It has been a while since I commented on this and in the meantime I have made a change in the system. I bought a Klimax Radikal in black - not because I knew there was a musical improvement, but because I felt it was the only way I could find out for sure what the differences are, if any. My first impression was that the KRadikal was a bit more musical than I remembered my ARadikal but there were a couple of days in between the two listening sessions. Eventually I plan to do a very thorough and scientific comparison between the two but I haven't had time yet. However, I recently did a number of upgrades and full setup to the LP12 of an out of town customer which included an ARadikal. During this time, and after I had torqued his Radikal, I was able to compare the two Radikals on my LP12 using the same Mimer K shelf and same power cable. I did find the KRadikal to be more musical but it was not a huge difference. Still I felt the improvement worthwhile and if this kind of difference remains through future testing I would tend to consider it a worthwhile purchase.
In considering the two units, however, I had an idea that I think others on the forum might want to try and report their findings. I would recommend that all those who own a Radikal try turning it upside down and see what you think it does to the music. Ideally I suppose it would be best to use some Linn rubber feet but I would suggest for a start just to try putting the thin piece of charcoal color foam that comes with the Radikal between the normal top of the Radikal and the shelf. I will be interested to know what people find out and will elaborate further once I see what people think (so as not to influence the outcomes). Happy listening (and Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it)!
The LP12 Whisperer
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I tried my Radikal (in Majik casework) upside down on a t-shirt. Straight off it sounded clearer which is just mind boggling. I think i prefer right side up, but want to hold final judgement until I can play a bit louder. It seems a bit over damped and less flowing. Also, upside down messes up my cable dressing so all sorts of power, ICs and speaker cables make contact.
I would like to compare whilst using the foam packing both right side up and upside down and also with cables not touching.
Tendaberry wrote:I have also heard that using 2 Radikals will bring an improvement: one for the motor and one for the Urika. Can anyone confirm this?
I recall a couple of guys on the Linn forum trying this with the Akurate Radikal within a year or two of release. They preferred a single Radikal - less detail but more musical. This was probably pre-Dynamik upgrade. It should still be on the forum if you wanted to dig around for it.
Tendaberry wrote:I have also heard that using 2 Radikals will bring an improvement: one for the motor and one for the Urika. Can anyone confirm this?
I recall a couple of guys on the Linn forum trying this with the Akurate Radikal within a year or two of release. They preferred a single Radikal - less detail but more musical. This was probably pre-Dynamik upgrade. It should still be on the forum if you wanted to dig around for it.
I did this comparison a few years back and found the single Radikal more musical. This was with Akurate Radikals. Have not done it recently nor with Klimax Radikals.
The LP12 Whisperer
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Please, no foam. Just as when I was experimenting with rug this is not the way to go. I hear changes within the music where relations between tones get pulled apart.
A firm and stiff base for placement of the equipment is mandatory to get the best music.
I wasn't really expecting that kind of foam. I definitely don't think that is a good idea in terms of support and the effect on the music. Later Radikals in Klimax and Akurate boxes come with a thin almost square piece of charcoal color foam that is only a couple mm thick. This is what I was suggesting to protect the top of the unit and supply a small bit of compliance. Other than that I don't want to comment on Charlie1s clips yet. Anybody else try it?
As to the grounds the Radikals, I don't believe they have separate internal ground wires like some of the other products. It appears the power supply and main boards are grounded to the chassis through the mounting bolts.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.