Komri with Tundra/Tundra mono

[rcmc77]

Split from the Sagatun thread :)

/Az

Thank you ThomasOK and rcmc77 for sharing your impressions on Sagatun and Sagatun Mono! Interesting stuff on how you feel the DS player source benefits the most from Sagatun Mono.
And Thomas: I am happy you got the chance to confirm how the EEPROM memory firmware affected performance.

... I wanted to ask Frederik if he has heard Linn Komri speakers driven by Tundra, and if so, any thoughts.

Yes, I have tried Tunda with Komri twice. First with an early prototype of the stereo Tundra, housed in a case that was so small that after playing for half an hour it was almost too hot to touch. The member 'Komri' on this forum was there too (it was his Komri's) and he was very impressed. At the time he wrote about it on the Swedish Linn forum selleri.de.

Second time I tried Komri was with a pair of Tundra Mono's. It sounded really good. I think, though, that Komri is a speaker one must hear before purchase. It's quite special. Perhaps not the most refined or neutral loudspeaker by today's standards, but very impressively physical and full range.

Thanks Frederik for your reply. If you wouldn't mind I thought of a couple more Komri/Tundra related questions. Apologies if this is the wrong place to post it, I'm new at this.

1. I wasn't quite sure what to make of the 2nd part of your reply where you said Komri sounded really good and is quite special, as well as being impressively physical and full range, but at the same time it is a speaker that should be heard before purchase, and may not be the most refined or neutral by today's standards. Are you possibly saying that Komri colors the sound and/or may be more impressive in a hi- if sort of way than it is musical. I kind of feel that that may be the case with my Artikulat 350a's. The direction I am trying to go is definitely toward musicality.

2. When you heard the Komri with the Tundra did you feel that the 4k array of the Komri had the same kind of mild harshness in a certain area of the midrange as you have mentioned in a different post that the Linn 3k arrays have (except for Akubarik, which you had told me when you and I were talking at the musical evening at Overture Audio).

3. Do you think there could be any heat-related issues using Tundra stereo in its production case to drive Komri's, as opposed to the prototype case you mentioned where it got almost too hot to touch. I'm wondering because f I were to buy the Komris I would have to start with the Tundra stereo and eventually work my way up to full set of Tundra and Sagatun Monos.

[lejonklou]

1. I wasn't quite sure what to make of the 2nd part of your reply where you said Komri sounded really good and is quite special, as well as being impressively physical and full range, but at the same time it is a speaker that should be heard before purchase, and may not be the most refined or neutral by today's standards. Are you possibly saying that Komri colors the sound and/or may be more impressive in a hi- if sort of way than it is musical. I kind of feel that that may be the case with my Artikulat 350a's. The direction I am trying to go is definitely toward musicality.

My conviction is that you must listen to a speaker before purchase. It's the part of the HiFi chain that is most open to discussion and personal taste. Ideally, one should also listen to speakers in one's own room. Not all speakers work perfectly everywhere.

I have only installed Komri's a couple of times and heard them a few more. Since the last time I did listen to them, lots of things have happened. New experiences of how great music can sound at home have been made and I can't compare or judge different speakers from memory. There are probably others on this forum who know Komri a lot better than I do. Music Lover has owned a pair. Erik has a friend nearby with a pair. Perhaps they can elaborate - but it doesn't relieve you from the fact that you need to hear them yourself.

2. When you heard the Komri with the Tundra did you feel that the 4k array of the Komri had the same kind of mild harshness in a certain area of the midrange as you have mentioned in a different post that the Linn 3k arrays have (except for Akubarik, which you had told me when you and I were talking at the musical evening at Overture Audio).

No, I don't remember that from Komri. But as it was some time ago, I could be wrong.

3. Do you think there could be any heat-related issues using Tundra stereo in its production case to drive Komri's, as opposed to the prototype case you mentioned where it got almost too hot to touch. I'm wondering because f I were to buy the Komris I would have to start with the Tundra stereo and eventually work my way up to full set of Tundra and Sagatun Monos.

No, there are no heat issues with Tundra in its production case, it cools effectively when well ventilated. The prototype had a cooling plate that was about one tenth of what the production case has.

Tundra can drive the Komri's to quite a loud level. Above that level, it clips. Whether it's loud enough depends on personal taste and the size of the room. Dance party levels are ususally much higher and require 10 to 100 times more power than any normal "THIS IS LOUD!" listening level.

Am I correct when I guess that you are able to buy a pair of Komri's that you can't try before purchase?

[rcmc77]

Frederik - yes you are correct, there is no option for me to try the Komri's first. I suppose it was a little obvious from my questions. Thanks for answering.

I agree with everything you're saying regarding hearing them first. When I found them I was not really planning on buying anything like that, but became tempted to "take a shot at it" for various reasons, including some comments on Linn forums. However, as you say, none of that is a substitute for hearing them.

Believe it or not I have actually had a personal rule for years to not purchase pretty much any audio equipment that I couldn't hear in my own room first. The only time I have broken it is the recent Isobarik DMS that I mentioned, but in this case the price was very reasonable and I have owned a version of that speaker before. Anyway, thanks for reminding me of what's important - you've helped me to clear up my thoughts on this.

[Music Lover]

Are you possibly saying that Komri colors the sound and/or may be more impressive in a hi- if sort of way than it is musical. I kind of feel that that may be the case with my Artikulat 350a's. The direction I am trying to go is definitely toward musicality.

First remember source first = the speakers are not as important as source/pre/amps! including ripping, NAS, racks, cables AND installation!!

I agree with you regarding Artikulat 350a's, a bit too much focus on HIFI.
But likely they going to be great with a top spec input signal (see above) It was years ago I last heard them.
At that time, no LS-NAS...no harmonihylla Mimer...no Sagatun etc

We learnt SO much during these years!

Owned Komris for over 6 years. Not suited for all rooms due to the massive bass performance.
They are true monitors, offering the best sound of any Linn speaker ever released. Not even close imho! definition...clarity...3D...deep bass...dynamics...slam...they have it all. And unlike most other speakers they sound great from volume 1 to full blast.

But they sound totally off, not installed perfectly or with less than optimum input signal.

Likely beaten by Klångedang regarding musicality !!

And they are HUGE and going to be a good bit out in the room = very intrusive!
Is the wife ok with that?

Verdict, you will either love them or hate them.
Will you like them? No idea but I would NOT buy them if you never heard them live. Or without help setting up the total system from a seriously experienced person.

[lejonklou]

Great advice, Music Lover!

[rcmc77]

Yes, thanks very much Music Lover. I just got home and saw the post. I really appreciate the response and advice from both you and Frederik. Especially appreciate the comments regarding the Komri's being totally off if source signal and/or setup is less than optimum.

I do have the seriously experienced setup person available locally, that would be Thomas OK, I have no doubt that he could set them up as good as they could be set up.

However something I've discovered with my Artikulats, which were also set up by Tom 7 years ago, is that when it comes to recordings that are maybe something less than the best, they are very revealing and not particularly forgiving (even with fully loaded LP12/Kandid as source).
From Music Lover's comments this also appears to be the case with Komri's. I also found an old Stereophile review from around the time the Komri's came out which more or less said the same thing.

My experience recently with the Isobarik DMS's driven by a borrowed Tundra stereo is that even though the Isobarik is a lesser speaker than the Artikulat in some ways (maybe not all!), it has a musicality when driven by the Tundra which makes these less than optimum recordings more fun to listen to. Of course I suppose this could be the case with Komri too, if driven by Tundra stereo or better yet mono.

In any case I think I will heed the advice to not buy the Komris without hearing them, unless an extremely favorable price becomes possible, then I might still consider it.

[Azazello]

I have to say that I find the "listen before you buy"-advice a little depressive. It's quite unrealistic to expect someone to be able to borrow a pair of Komri's, ship them home and have them perfectly installed by a professional (a process that is likely to take weeks). Then carefully evaluate "if they suit your taste" and possibly send them back, only to re-install the previous system that one did not find satisfying in the first place. All to a considerable cost of money and energy

I would for sure not agree to that arrangement if I was the seller of a pair of Komri's. And if I was the buyer, I would probably find it more realistic and convenient to buy them, install and live with them for a while.

Just do it! That's my advice :)

[lejonklou]

However something I've discovered with my Artikulats, which were also set up by Tom 7 years ago, is that when it comes to recordings that are maybe something less than the best, they are very revealing and not particularly forgiving (even with fully loaded LP12/Kandid as source).
From Music Lover's comments this also appears to be the case with Komri's. I also found an old Stereophile review from around the time the Komri's came out which more or less said the same thing.

This is not my impression of Komri. A good loudspeaker - or turntable, digital source, amplifier, system - is never "revealing" in a negative way.

If your HiFi system makes you think "this is a bad recording", it's focusing on the wrong things. A good system makes you think about the music, what it says and what it does to you. And you will find most recordings to be excellent - if you think about that aspect at all.

I think Azazello's advice was a breath of fresh air (although I still think that you should hear them first). That Thomas OK can install them for you is a great advantage. I can also notify him of the two faults I've encountered when installing Komri's. The internal bass amps need a checkup, so it's perfect if Thomas can assist you.

[matthias]

This is not my impression of Komri. A good loudspeaker - or turntable, digital source, amplifier, system - is never "revealing" in a negative way.
If your HiFi system makes you think "this is a bad recording", it's focusing on the wrong things. A good system makes you think about the music, what it says and what it does to you. And you will find most recordings to be excellent - if you think about that aspect at all.

This is my experience as well.

Matt

[rcmc77]

It seems like some of the advice on this thread has done a bit of an about-face, initially it left me a little confused but I guess that's the way it goes. As I re-read it a few times I could see both sides.

Probably too late now to follow the "just do it" thinking in the later part of the thread. Before seeing it, I informed the seller of the Komri's that I probably could not make him an offer that he would find satisfactory.

After seeing the later advice I sort of wished I had waited a bit, maybe I wouldn't have done that, although there are other factors too, which I haven't discussed here, such as asking price and international shipping cost.

Also interesting what Frederick is saying

A good loudspeaker - or turntable, digital source, amplifier, system - is never "revealing" in a negative way.

If your HiFi system makes you think "this is a bad recording", it's focusing on the wrong things. A good system makes you think about the music, what it says and what it does to you. And you will find most recordings to be excellent - if you think about that aspect at all.

At first I was not sure I agreed regarding the part about a good system never being revealing in a negative way, because it seems that for a fairly long time now my all-Linn system has been "sensitive" to what seemed like poorer recordings or pressings. As I thought more about it I realized there was an earlier time when my system did just what Frederik says a good system does - it made even "inferior" recordings sound quite good and seemed to get something extra out of almost anything I played on it, and I barely thought about the quality of the recording, if at all. I just listened to the music. It's been some time since that was the case, I'm trying to figure out how to get back there...

[Charlie1]

As I thought more about it I realized there was an earlier time when my system did just what Frederik says a good system does - it made even "inferior" recordings sound quite good and seemed to get something extra out of almost anything I played on it, and I barely thought about the quality of the recording, if at all. I just listened to the music. It's been some time since that was the case, I'm trying to figure out how to get back there...

I would say trust your instincts on this and don't give up trying to get to the bottom of it. When everything is right then it really doesn't matter what I play, cos the music shines through first and foremost. I've had this myself a few times. Sometimes it was setup, sometimes I was never sure what was the fix in the end. i recall once it was purely down to the counterweight setting, but there are probably 100s of possibilities. You have a great dealer to help you sort it though. Fixing it may save you money too, since it is a great cure for upgraditis. Hope I've not got the wrong end of the stick ref your comment, but that's how I interpret what you're saying.

[rcmc77]

I would say trust your instincts on this and don't give up trying to get to the bottom of it. When everything is right then it really doesn't matter what I play, cos the music shines through first and foremost. I've had this myself a few times. Sometimes it was setup, sometimes I was never sure what was the fix in the end. i recall once it was purely down to the counterweight setting, but there are probably 100s of possibilities. You have a great dealer to help you sort it though. Fixing it may save you money too, since it is a great cure for upgraditis. Hope I've not got the wrong end of the stick ref your comment, but that's how I interpret what you're saying.

Thanks Charlie1 for the words of encouragement, much appreciated. Although I don't actually think I have a setup problem in this case, or any kind of a malfunction. It's been hard to admit, but I am beginning to believe that the root of my dissatisfaction is actually a characteristic of my Artikulat speakers to have a slight harshness in a certain frequency area of the midrange. Frederik has mentioned before on the forums that the earlier Linn 3K arrays have this tendency, and Thomas OK has described it to me as a a "hashiness" in the upper midrange, which is a good description of what you may hear. On some music it it's not really any problem, but on other music you really don't enjoy it, especially at higher volume. It just depends on the musical content. For example, music with multiple voices is often affected in a fairly negative way, just not sorted out right and sometimes sounding somewhat distorted.

My front end is in pretty good shape, LP 12 fully loaded, with Kandid. KK/0 with Dynamik. At some point Sagatun monos will make their way in there to replace the KK but basically what I think I need to do next is either upgrade my speakers to Klimax or replace them, hence my interest in the Komri's when they became available.

By the way, to others on the forum who advised "taking a shot" at the Komri's, I did do that with a couple hours left in the listing. As it turns out it would not have mattered what I offered, eBay would not allow me to purchase them. This is because in the seller's auction it was stated he would not ship, and even though he and I had previously worked out an arrangement where he would package the Komri's for shipment and then I would make the arrangements to have them picked up and delivered, eBay would not allow me to make an offer of any kind. So the Komri's may or may not still be an option for me.

[hcl]

I would say trust your instincts on this and don't give up trying to get to the bottom of it. When everything is right then it really doesn't matter what I play, cos the music shines through first and foremost. I've had this myself a few times. Sometimes it was setup, sometimes I was never sure what was the fix in the end. i recall once it was purely down to the counterweight setting, but there are probably 100s of possibilities. You have a great dealer to help you sort it though. Fixing it may save you money too, since it is a great cure for upgraditis. Hope I've not got the wrong end of the stick ref your comment, but that's how I interpret what you're saying.

Thanks Charlie1 for the words of encouragement, much appreciated. Although I don't actually think I have a setup problem in this case, or any kind of a malfunction. It's been hard to admit, but I am beginning to believe that the root of my dissatisfaction is actually a characteristic of my Artikulat speakers to have a slight harshness in a certain frequency area of the midrange. Frederik has mentioned before on the forums that the earlier Linn 3K arrays have this tendency, and Thomas OK has described it to me as a a "hashiness" in the upper midrange, which is a good description of what you may hear. On some music it it's not really any problem, but on other music you really don't enjoy it, especially at higher volume. It just depends on the musical content. For example, music with multiple voices is often affected in a fairly negative way, just not sorted out right and sometimes sounding somewhat distorted.

If this drawback of your set-up is something you feel have come creeping and that it was no issue initially, I would still think it has something to do with the installation or a faulty products (all faults does not meen that the unit does not work at all...). After the first (two-ish) years things need some attention now and then to perform at its best. Contacts needs un-and-re-plugged a couple of times a couple pf times a year. After some years the performance benefits from the same treatment of the internal connectors, inside the units. The supporting furniture also tend to change with time having some impact on the final result.

The first thing I would do is to invite ThomasOK to do a full system overhaul. Afer that you are in a much better position to evaluate how to proceed. As MusicLover states, almost everything else up streams the speakers have more impact on the end result... and I would be surprised if ThomasOK had not gained some experience since he did the initial installation. I have found that there are more to gain from working with the arrangement of the mains cables than I expected.

[rcmc77]

If this drawback of your set-up is something you feel have come creeping and that it was no issue initially, I would still think it has something to do with the installation or a faulty products (all faults does not meen that the unit does not work at all...). After the first (two-ish) years things need some attention now and then to perform at its best. Contacts needs un-and-re-plugged a couple of times a couple pf times a year. After some years the performance benefits from the same treatment of the internal connectors, inside the units. The supporting furniture also tend to change with time having some impact on the final result.

The first thing I would do is to invite ThomasOK to do a full system overhaul. Afer that you are in a much better position to evaluate how to proceed. As MusicLover states, almost everything else up streams the speakers have more impact on the end result... and I would be surprised if ThomasOK had not gained some experience since he did the initial installation. I have found that there are more to gain from working with the arrangement of the mains cables than I expected.

Hi hcl,

Thanks for taking the time, the suggestions are appreciated. Some I have done (although not internal connections for the most part). I've also tried many things with the room, etc. Sometimes would seem to get improvement but the underlying issue would eventually bleed through. Still going to work on some minor repositioning of the speakers and possibly could have Tom come out again, but...there are a couple of things I should probably mention as well.

I have thought about it and I believe the problem was there initially, it just took a while to realize there was a problem. The speakers in general were a pretty big improvement sound-wise over my previous setup and with the amps being built into the cabinet I got rid of some boxes as well. The retail price of these speakers was out of my reach, but the price offered for this pair was very attractive, I was told this was due to a very minor cosmetic flaw that now is almost unnoticeable. All very appealing, even kind of thrilling, at the the time.

It seems I can remember noticing a bit of midrange graininess/harshness initially in certain music but I basically ignored it because of other things that the speakers did, especially the bass. Over time this small harshness became more of an annoyance than it was initially.

Also in the last year Thomas OK and I have done a "single-speaker" A-B comparison at the store between one of my Artikulat 350a's and a Klimax 350a that was shipped in by one of his customers for a small repair. The Klimax 350a did not appear to have this same kind of issue in the midrange, bass was tighter, etc.

So yes, you would probably say, get yours upgraded to Klimax 350a and be done with it. I have thought about doing that, one thing that has stopped me so far, in addition to the cost (roughly $14K including Dynamik) and having to ship the speakers out, is that Thomas OK has mentioned that with the Artikulat 350a the internal amps, crossovers, etc., are mounted more or less individually with wires going everywhere, and he feels Linn paid no attention to things like correct directionality of internal wiring and that it probably has an effect on the sound, and it also appears that doing the upgrade would not change this.

Tom is a big believer, and I think rightly so, in getting these kinds of things correct. In our conversations it is clear that he feels this lack of attention to detail is a detriment in a speaker of this cost. He also has told me that with newer Linn Aktiv speakers such as Akubarik that this has been completely redesigned and all internal amps, crossovers, etc., are now basically on one board, with much better control of signal paths, etc.

He said it would be very difficult and time-consuming to open up my speakers to check and correct this, and that when Linn does the upgrade to Klimax 350a that they will not do it. So if I were to upgrade mine to Klimax I would still have this issue. How much of an effect it has there is no way to know, but it is one reason that I have not done the upgrade.

Needless to say with something like Tundra paired with Komri, because Frederik has paid meticulous attention to similar kinds of details, with the goal of eliminating anything that could have a negative effect on the music, this particular issue would not come into play.

[tokenbrit]

Having heard the improvements that Tom's attention to detail can wring from Linn electronics, I have to think that your Artikulates could indeed sound (much?) better than they do currently. Of course, that level of attention to detail is already included in Fredrik's wonderful products. If there is something inherent in your 350s that is at the heart of the issue with your system, then it does seem that you will only mitigate the impact rather than address it properly without some more fundamental change such as different speakers whether Klimax, Komri, or something else... plus Sagatuns & Tundras ;)
Good luck.

[rcmc77]

Of course, that level of attention to detail is already included in Fredrik's wonderful products.

If there is something inherent in your 350s that is at the heart of the issue with your system, then it does seem that you will only mitigate the impact rather than address it properly without some more fundamental change such as different speakers whether Klimax, Komri, or something else... plus Sagatuns & Tundras ;)
Good luck.

Hi tokenbrit,
I think I met you at the Sagatun launch at Overture Audio. If I recall right you live in St. Louis now.

I am getting a taste of Frederik's attention to detail tonight. I'm playing Tundra monos through the Isobark DMS's that I picked up recently, so that I would have a reasonable quality speaker to try amps such as Tundra with. I have previously (about a week ago) heard the Tundra stereo with these same speakers, it was good, this is better and not by a small margin. Very similar to difference between Sagatun Mono and stereo. In my opinion these monos are easily worth the money. I actually feel tonight that I could live with Tundra monos and Isobariks while I look for Komri's (kind of joking there but also I do plan to keep an eye open for Komri's, if the Tundra monos do this for the Isobariks imagine what they do for Komri''s, and then if Sagatun monos are added later - whew!)

[Charlie1]

Sounds like you've already made some good progress thanks to Tom's help. Whilst your speakers were installed a long time ago and would likely benefit a re-tune, following your LP12 updates and overall time gap, it appears you've identified the cause via the in-store dem.

Been a long-time since I heard Artikulate 350A's. I also found them a bit laid back, although I enjoyed the midrange and bigger sound (compared to the mk1 242's I'd heard on previous visits). I also recall listening to a very average Hendrix pressing and it was not exactly inspiring, but maybe that was purely the LP. This was long before Radikal, but perhaps post SE updates.

Finding your ideal full-range speaker seems to be one of the toughest goals in Hi-Fi. I guess I'm in some ways quite fortunate that I can't afford to have that problem :)

[rcmc77]

Not sure I can afford to have that problem either, seems like the cost of the various improvements that I'm considering keeps going up !

For example having now compared the mono and stereo versions of both Tundra and Sagatun, I've come to realize that even though the stereo version of each is excellent, for me only the monos would make sense regardless if I am talking about using Aktiv speakers such as Klimax 350 or Akubarik, where only the Sagatuns could be used, or passive speakers such as Isobarik or Komri, where both Tundras and Sagatuns could be implemented.

I think I'm starting to feel some pains near the wallet area.....

[ThomasOK]

There are two different issues I wanted to address with this post. The first has to do with setup. While I suspect going over the system again would make an improvement I am doubtful the normal adjustments would totally solve the problem. For one thing, I have been out to rcmc77's place a few times adjusting and improving his system. It is true the last time was a couple of years ago but some of the usual suspects have been taken care of recently such as the fitting of a Kandid to his LP12 and a readjustment of the turntable and the plugging and unplugging of contacts as he has recently brought his KK in here for comparisons. So all connections on his turntable and preamp have been renewed and I believe his speaker connections as well. In setting up his Artikulats I have torqued all his drivers with the specs Fredrik and I currently consider optimum for the drivers as well as having tried some other torques that we and others had liked. I have carefully positioned the speakers in the room and when using Skeets on top of carpet was first discussed we tried it and found it a musical improvement so those are in place. Yes, revisiting some of these would be worthwhile. However, one of the big questions is the internals of the Artikulats which would be a royal pain to optimize – especially as there is no easy way to listen to the changes as the module would be off the speaker. Considering all the internal cabling, Aktiv connectors and boards that would have to be optimized I consider this a bit of a nightmare and not an inexpensive undertaking.

Certainly equipment furniture can have a big impact and I do plan on having him listen to the Harmoni racks sometime relatively soon. My need for enough demo pieces for the Sagatun premiere and for the upcoming RMAF in October, as well as needing enough to hold up my own equipment - a task made more complex by the surprise of Sagatun Monos – has meant I haven’t had units available to demo. This should ease up after RMAF.

However, as rcmc77 has mentioned we also conducted a comparison of a single Artikulat 350A vs. a Klimax 350A in the store with the KK/1 and LP12SE (pre-Kandid) and the problem he finds annoying was quite in evidence there (and honestly annoying to me as well). All this gives us both less than high hopes for overcoming it with upstream improvements.

I do agree that upstream improvements make more important musical differences than speakers. But we have already covered that rcmc77 has some pretty refined upstream gear and he has heard Sagatun at home as well. I also agree that a truly revealing speaker (or other component) will allow you to hear more of the music and that it will make records you used to consider borderline much more enjoyable as you will be presented with more of the music. However, there are speakers that just have problems that cannot be removed by upstream gear changes or optimization.

There are two problems with the term “revealing”: one is that it is often used as a synonym for “detailed” which often means something that is bright or forward in the midrange which highlights some parts of the music at the expense of others. Most on this forum would equate that kind of “revealing” with fatiguing. The other problem is that some products that are truly revealing, and here I would put things like my ATCs, Komris, Akubariks and others, are reviewed or heard as unforgiving because they are used with less than the best equipment in front of them and they do indeed reveal the flaws of what comes before. While this can apply to the recordings themselves, I find this to be a relatively rare occurrence with only really poor or badly worn recordings. Most recordings seem to still have much more information than we can decode – especially vinyl – so the more you reveal the more fun you have. But mess with the hierarchy and you do so at your own peril.

The other thing I wanted to comment on is the “you should really listen to them in your own home” comment that comes up in any thread like this. Now, of course, the ideal way to make a decision on anything is to listen to it in your own home with your own system. And I’ve certainly given this recommendation myself often enough. (Probably the second best is to compare a component to one you are familiar with in a somewhat similar system in a dealer who has rooms designed to mimic normal listening rooms.) However, I don’t think people realize how unrealistic that often is in the US and especially when dealing with a long-discontinued, high-end product like the Komri. I have to agree with post from Azazello that the idea is rather depressing, as it is so unlikely. Some of this is just due to the US market. Here we have a quite large landmass with pretty spread out dealerships. A good example of this is that I now have three customers who travel 500 to 600 miles to have me set up their LP12s and a fair number traveling over 300 miles. This is simply because there is no quality LP12 technician nearer to them. In what is referred to as the mid-western region of the US if you look at the states of Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia and western Pennsylvania you will find one dealer selling and supporting Linn products and the only dealer in Ohio is relatively new and listed as only handling Majik level products. Now despite having customers from a wide area coming to us for LP12 work we still don’t do enough new LP12 business to justify dozens of LP12s on the floor. As a matter of fact we currently have three on demo, which is likely to be more than you will find in all but a very small handful of US Linn dealers. Another example is the Akubarik passive – we haven’t heard it and will likely not for some time. The US Linn representatives do not have a pair for evaluation nor do they plan to get a set. From what they have told us there may not even be a pair anywhere in the US on demo. We have a pair of the Aktiv versions here but if someone wants to hear the passives we can’t help. This is a very common problem throughout the US as Linn is not as big a part of any dealer’s business here as they are in the UK or other dealerships here and there in Europe. Hence I am willing to bet there is no dealer in the US where you could hear Akubariks in passive, Aktiv and Exakt forms. The same would go for Klimax 350s. With the level of Linn business here and the number of other brands competing for dealer’s floor space there isn’t the financial justification for the levels of investment you would often find in the UK – even with the biggest dealers in the largest metropolitan areas in the US. So this again makes in-home comparisons of all possible Linn product configurations in the home something that is, I believe, literally impossible in the US.

As long time Linn dealers we do the best we can with a pretty wide range of demo equipment from Linn and some additional resources from the US distributor but often products are bought because of the faith customers have in us and in Linn. This is also something I have done in my personal purchasing of Hi-Fi despite the fact that I work in the industry. I purchased the first Akiva, the first Keel and Ekos SE, the first Radikal and Urika shipped into North America. They wouldn’t let me have the first Kandid but I did get the second one shipped into Michigan (after the one reserved as demo for the top LP12 US dealers). So I obviously didn’t get to give them a home audition before buying. Nor did I with the ATC speakers, which I had to drive to Chicago to hear in an unfamiliar room with an unfamiliar setup. It is just a fact of life in the US that you won’t be able to hear everything you’d like to hear in your own home and when talking about something like Komri (which Overture Audio never had on demo nor did we sell any) you’ll be lucky to be able to hear it at all. With new products we will do what we can to let you hear what you are looking at buying and Fredrik can attest to the fact that we have created a facility designed to make this possible with quite a bit of equipment on demo and three single-speaker demonstration rooms designed to mimic, as much as possible, typical US living rooms. But again you sometimes have to listen to something like Aktiv Akubariks and then try to decide from that how you think passive ones would work. This is one place where a forum such as this can be so valuable. People who have heard say Aktiv Akubariks vs. passive ones driven by Tundra Monos or Solos can report their findings and those who cannot hear the comparison can use their feelings about the ears of those posting to help decide what would work for them. Sometimes it’s just the way you have to make your decisions – life is like that. With something used like the Komri, if you are seriously interested and the price is good my feeling is that it is probably worth the chance. For one thing buying them is the only way you will get to hear them in your own home (or possibly hear it at all as the nearest pair I know I could listen to are about 600 miles away and driven by a pair of tube power amps). Plus, as long as you did get a good price you should be able to turn around and sell them with little or no loss if you don’t like them, although it could take some time, as they don’t move all that quickly. Hopefully the worst you end up with is a relatively inexpensive education.

[Charlie1]

Great post Tom. Vaguely similar to your Komri comment, I bought my Majik speakers knowing I could sell them on without loss, if I didn't like them. Another benefit is that you can take much more time to make up your mind, provided you don't need the cash urgently.

I also thought Azazello's post was refreshingly realistic.

[hcl]

Agreed on a great post.

It is somewhat depressing to read that altough the US is a big country and most often described as one of the worlds most powerful countries, it is sad that there seem to be a much worse high quality hifi (Linn) dealer situation over there than it is here in sweden, where we are about 30 % less dense (per sq mile) than you are in the US.

[rcmc77]

Certainly appreciate the clarification from Thomas OK regarding some of the audio business realities in the US as compared to the UK. I had wondered from time to time why certain Linn equipment was not seen in the store on demo, but had never really asked because in the past, in most cases, it was equipment I was not in a position to consider, for example Klimax DS.

Thanks to his explanation I have a better understanding now of these realities, although I am still left with the somewhat depressing knowledge that there simply seems to be no way, at least not in the US, for me to demo some of the newer equipment that I am interested in. The ones that that come to mind are passive Akubarik, and the upgrades from my Artikulats to either Klimax or Exakt 350. I know that in the case of passive Akubarik it is more a decision on Linn's part not to distribute them in the US, at least not right now, and Tom has also told me that he would like to be able to hear them.

Generally speaking I understand what Tom is saying about the business realities, but from my side of the fence it is just difficult to spend the kind of money we are talking about without being able to hear the equipment first.

As I think I've mentioned previously I have been able to demo the Lejonklou Tundra and Sagatun, monos and stereo, and that has been great to be able to do. But I would still like to hear the ones mentioned above, especially in combination with Lejonklou pieces where appropriate. At my stage of the game whatever I do needs to last into retirement. As I mentioned, when I first heard the Artikulats 7 years ago, I kind of "jumped" for various reasons. Don't want to repeat a mistake - Guess I may need to buy a plane ticket.....?

I certainly have enjoyed my first forum experience and appreciate everyone who has chimed in so far. Possibly as Thomas OK suggests I may be able to gain some information this way that will help in deciding what to do, time will tell.

[jakez]

It seems that this topic has diverged from it's beginning. I like the information though.

I live in the US, in Colorado. There is one Linn dealer about 50 miles from me, but that is not his specialty, other than working with LP12s. He has a few Linn pieces, but it's very sporadic. Previously I lived in the Seattle are in Washington and was fortunate to live near Definitive Audio, which had two stores and always had at least 3 or 4 rooms with Linn equipment set up. They always had great knowledge of Linn pieces.

Perhaps 15 years ago it seemed there was much more enthusiasm for Linn gear within Definitive Audio. While it's still there, it's not as present.

At this point I continue to work with Definitive Audio whenever I can. I am in Seattle probably once a year and get to listen, but it definitely means a trip to find good knowledge and plenty of systems to listen to.

With my recent upgrade (212s -> Akubarik passive from Definitive Audio, 5100s -> Lejonklou Monos from Hidden Systems), I ordered the system within ever hearing it. Knowing how good the 212s were and reading reviews on the Akubariks, I felt pretty confident it was a great speaker. For the Lejonklous, I went entirely on reading reviews and talking with Chris at Hidden Systems. I'm grateful he was able to provide so much insight in words.

With this system, it worked out pretty well (still missing a little bass), but in the past I've done the approach of buy used and see if I like and if not sell it. That's worked as well.

So if anyone is in/near Denver/Boulder Colorado, I'm happy to demo for anyone. That might be something Linn could leverage in the US - is not just dealers, but people who are willing to demo systems in their homes.

[Ron The Mon]

rcmc77,
Are you the dude I told my story about Isobariks powered from mono Tundras to? And you casually mentioned you'd buy some Isobariks and compare them?

Regardless, the main component missing from this thread is to have Tom out to your house and set up your Isobariks! Isobariks are set-up critical. Positioning is crucial. Speaker cable type, length, and placement is also important. Driver torques (among older DMS especially) will improve performance. Lastly, depending on age and which tweeters are installed can improve your Isobariks tremendously.

I have tried all the Linn variant tweeters and they all have improved over the years. I have not tried the latest "Oskar" versions which seem to get rave reviews.

Compared to buying Komris, finding the proper stands, stuffing, and stand enclosures for your Isobariks are peanuts.

The bottom line is: Do not think your DMS as you've heard them are the last word.

Ron The Mon
DMS-Fan

[rcmc77]

I haven't been on in a bit, wanted to respond to Ron and jakez.

jakez,
Appreciate the info. Yes the topic did diverge somewhat but to possibly get it back on track just a little bit, Komri's could be in the picture for me again. Although there is probably nothing else new for me to add regarding Komri right now.

If the Komri's become a reality, at this point I would likely put a Tundra stereo in front of them for budget reasons, although I'd have to hear the monos too before actually deciding to do that.

Interesting about your recent upgrades, and ordering without hearing first. I'm better understanding what you and others are saying on this, and of course if I do get the Komri's I will be doing the same thing.

You had said your system is missing a little bass, would you say that was mostly the Akubariks, and do you think that was an initial impression that you've now adjusted to. That's kind of what's happened with me, going from my Artikulats to the Isobarik DMS's I mentioned earlier in the thread which I've have been using for a while now.

Ron,
It could be that I'm the one you told the story to - I don't recall for sure but I did meet you at the Sagatun launch at Overture Audio in July, and we talked a little bit. I do recall mentioning to someone there that I was looking for some Isobariks to use to audition the stereo and mono Tundras.

I narrowly missed out on the Isobariks that you bought from the store back in April. A couple days before you bought them, I had to go out of town for a couple weeks, and couldn't quite bring myself to pull the trigger before I left. I came very close to doing it. In any case I did end up with a very nice looking pair (black like yours, although yours are a later version).

Thanks for the tips and info. I've had some discussions with Thomas OK on some ideas to optimize the Isobariks, and I will talk to him about some of the things you've mentioned. I've already done one thing - last Saturday I picked up from him a set of Linn speaker cables (K200 I think) for the Isobariks, made to the "magic length" that Frederik has determined by extensive testing, and which I believe he has explained elsewhere on this forum.